Author Topic: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE  (Read 5488 times)

Talon

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RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« on: January 15, 2016, 06:47:20 PM »
With the addition of the optional practice squad, Some GM's have expressed concern with having to release a player or designate them to the IR in order to sign a practice squad player to the active roster.

A potential solution for this issue would be the creation of a "Designated to Return" list, allowing teams to send an injured player to a short-term injured/reserve list where they would stay under contract and remain paid while no longer counting against the active roster.

Under this rule, an injured player (time to be determined) would be eligible to come off of the active roster for a predetermined period of time, allowing a practice squad player to be promoted to the main roster to take their place on the active roster. 

When the designated time expires, the injured player must be returned to the active roster, meaning a player must be released to clear a space for him.   Salary would not be a concern, as the returning player's salary is already accounted for, but you either terminate the contract of the practice squad player, negotiate a deal to re-sign them to the practice squad without having to cut them, or release another player from another open roster spot.

With 36 of your 40 roster spots being required at certain positions, we have all seen what injuries can do to your team, this option gives you a way to manage your team without having to release players, or play short handed due to a 2-6 week injury.





Example:

Carolina Panthers lose DE Charles Johnson to injury, He is out for 4-6 weeks with an injured knee.

The Panthers only have Frank Alexander at DE other than their starter Kony Ealy (who is playing on the other side of the line) 

The Panthers have Wes Horton on the practice squad.

Panthers move Charles Johnson to the Designated to Return list and promote Wes Horton to the active roster.

After 4 weeks, Charles Johnson is ready to return to the field.  The Panthers re-sign Horton to the practice squad, and Charles Johnson is brought back to the active roster.


Life goes on....





Thoughts?  Questions?


Discuss!
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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2016, 06:52:16 PM »
Wonderful.

Talon

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 06:54:03 PM »
The league is considering adopting this rule before the season begins, IF it gains enough traction among the rest of the league.

If not, it could go into effect starting S8
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GM Kirk [21|May 12:29 AM]:   When trade fever hits, math is the first casualty.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 07:08:06 PM »
I'm going to say no for this off-season because, at least to me, it materially changes the way some teams might have built there team in the off-season. I'll put my hand up and say I went with a small, almost non-existent, practice squad as I'd have to cut someone to promote a player and didn't think I had anyone I really wanted to cut. I might have gone with a bigger practice squad had I known that this was going to be an option.

That being said - love it for Season 8.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2016, 07:13:20 PM »
100% agreement with Metro. I'd have formed my team differently if I'd known about this in advance. S8 would be great.


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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2016, 07:21:20 PM »
I uhhh formed my team with this problem in mind.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 07:39:29 PM »
I'm going to say no for this off-season because, at least to me, it materially changes the way some teams might have built there team in the off-season. I'll put my hand up and say I went with a small, almost non-existent, practice squad as I'd have to cut someone to promote a player and didn't think I had anyone I really wanted to cut. I might have gone with a bigger practice squad had I known that this was going to be an option.

That being said - love it for Season 8.

I've got zero practice squad so I agree with this...

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2016, 07:44:39 PM »
I'm of a mind that the cap increase was so much not because of inflation, but because the practice squad, if you poorly planned, then that's on you.

I'm in for the DTRIR

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2016, 08:00:44 PM »
Agreed. I mean what did people think the practice squad would be for? Not my fault if you didn't plan to have one...

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2016, 08:30:49 PM »
I made my plans for the rules that were in place before locking in. You may agree or disagree, but that's not the issue at hand. This rule, had it been in effect, would've fundamentally changed my planning/outlook. Springing it after I've already locked in is no Bueno.


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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2016, 08:42:17 PM »
I'm of a mind that the cap increase was so much not because of inflation, but because the practice squad, if you poorly planned, then that's on you.

Regardless of whether you feel my planning was poor - it was made with the rules at the time in mind. You've got a team that has a couple players that are getting older so it makes sense to start developing them - hence the practice squad. For me I've got a significant number of draft picks next year and not a lot of turnover so rostering someone with development in mind made no sense. If I ran into injuries I was going to have to cut someone anyways - so why bother with the practice squad when that player would be a stop-gap and so I'm not concerned with development?

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2016, 08:45:08 PM »
I'm going to say no for this off-season because, at least to me, it materially changes the way some teams might have built there team in the off-season. I'll put my hand up and say I went with a small, almost non-existent, practice squad as I'd have to cut someone to promote a player and didn't think I had anyone I really wanted to cut. I might have gone with a bigger practice squad had I known that this was going to be an option.

That being said - love it for Season 8.

This

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2016, 08:54:52 PM »
After watching what happened in Oakland, i grabbed a bit of practice squad depth to cover injuries. I like the idea but agree maybe it should start in the next off season/season 8 so that everyone is aware beforehand. Keep it as is right now and do this next season

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2016, 09:33:37 PM »
Regardless of whether you feel my planning was poor - it was made with the rules at the time in mind. You've got a team that has a couple players that are getting older so it makes sense to start developing them - hence the practice squad. For me I've got a significant number of draft picks next year and not a lot of turnover so rostering someone with development in mind made no sense. If I ran into injuries I was going to have to cut someone anyways - so why bother with the practice squad when that player would be a stop-gap and so I'm not concerned with development?

My guys weren't with developing in mind, they were cheap depth, because after last year, where I had my entire secondary seemingly injured at once, i needed the depth.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2016, 11:01:09 PM »
I say go for it  right now ... that just me.

I was using the practice squad as cover for just in case someone goes down in the line of duty

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2016, 11:25:33 PM »
I don't agree with the change in rule at all, but if you're going to do it, start it next season. I like the rule as it is now, though.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2016, 11:38:32 PM »
I already knew practice squad would be players who could sub for injured players, I say season 8

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2016, 11:45:32 PM »
I already knew practice squad would be players who could sub for injured players, I say season 8

You've over simplified it and missed the point of the rule change.


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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2016, 11:49:07 PM »
The rule helps those who saw fit to take advantage of the practice squads and hurts those who thought it wasn't important.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2016, 11:53:03 PM »
The rule is a get out of jail free card for people who didn't build their squad of 40 properly. 40 guys are plenty for having backups to cover each position. The practice squads help you develop very young players or guys with very rough edges. Sure, you can call one up if you want, but you shouldn't be able to do it for a couple of weeks.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2016, 12:06:53 AM »
The rule helps those who saw fit to take advantage of the practice squads and hurts those who thought it wasn't important.

Bottom line is, changing a rule after half the league has locked in is not cool. Especially if people are saying they'd have done things differently if the rule was in place earlier.

I built my team with injuries in mind in a different way than I would have if this rule was in place. I left myself an open roster spot plus some cash in my cap to sign someone to fill in for injury. Had this rule been in place, I'd have definitely utilized the practice squad, budgeted differently, etc.


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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2016, 01:07:13 AM »
Bottom line is, changing a rule after half the league has locked in is not cool. Especially if people are saying they'd have done things differently if the rule was in place earlier.

I built my team with injuries in mind in a different way than I would have if this rule was in place. I left myself an open roster spot plus some cash in my cap to sign someone to fill in for injury. Had this rule been in place, I'd have definitely utilized the practice squad, budgeted differently, etc.

1) You assume those aren't locked in as closed spots

2) You're going to use the money to sign people in case of injuries when you could have signed them already for non-roster spots?

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2016, 01:33:47 AM »
1) You assume those aren't locked in as closed spots

2) You're going to use the money to sign people in case of injuries when you could have signed them already for non-roster spots?

1 - They're not. They haven't been in the past, why would they be now?

2 - Yes. Because at the time, a 'designated to return' injury designation wasn't a thing.


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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2016, 07:26:17 AM »
They're grayed out on the sheet, like they were two season s ago when you locked in with spots unfilled and you were locked into the roster limit you locked in with.

And it still doesn't make sense. You call up the guys and they take up a roster spot, the same roster spot that signing someone would  take up. I don't see how not having practice squad players because you were just going to spend the money you have later in case injuries happen. The money doesn't rollover into next year.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2016, 07:52:52 AM »
I'm going to say no for this off-season because, at least to me, it materially changes the way some teams might have built there team in the off-season. I'll put my hand up and say I went with a small, almost non-existent, practice squad as I'd have to cut someone to promote a player and didn't think I had anyone I really wanted to cut. I might have gone with a bigger practice squad had I known that this was going to be an option.

That being said - love it for Season 8.



  

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2016, 08:52:16 AM »
They're grayed out on the sheet, like they were two season s ago when you locked in with spots unfilled and you were locked into the roster limit you locked in with.

And it still doesn't make sense. You call up the guys and they take up a roster spot, the same roster spot that signing someone would  take up. I don't see how not having practice squad players because you were just going to spend the money you have later in case injuries happen. The money doesn't rollover into next year.

I don't remember locking in with a smaller roster if you left open spaces. We'd have to get mod confirmation on that. As for leaving a space open for signing an injury replacement, it makes sense because you don't know what position the injuries are going to come in. Free Agents are probably better and more expensive than the guys you can put in your practice squad, so it makes sense to have a spot open for emergencies rather than picking someone rubbish or undeveloped for the practice squad. 

Or you can fill all your spots with useful players and have good practice squad players to develop, like me.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2016, 09:14:50 AM »
To get this back on topic, I don't like the new rule because it takes away a tough decision that GMs will have to make at some point in their careers. Some of the best drama and talking points have come from how GMs responded to injuries. Currently, if an important player gets injured for more than a few weeks, GM's have to choose between loyalty to their player or cutting him and going all out for the wins whilst he's out of action. It's a tough decision which adds an element to the game. The new rule takes that dilemma away and gives us one less headache to deal with. The new rule makes sense in real life, but I think the game is better the way it is now.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2016, 09:27:26 AM »
I don't think anyone your signing/promoting for injuries is going to impact your season. If your starting guard or starting DE goes down for a significant amount of time, your screwed if you didn't have someone on the roster to replace them.

The practice squad is mainly for depth, if it was for development, the contracts would be for longer.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2016, 09:33:27 AM »
If your DE goes down and you don't have anyone to replace him, you haven't built your team properly and you deserve to be screwed.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2016, 10:04:13 AM »
I guess it's because I'm the only one who faced an entire position unit out for those 2-4 week injuries that I'm not understand why people don't want this rule. You get a roster spot for a couple weeks without having to IR or cut your guy and when they come back, you can cut the guy. So I'm speaking from a place where this would have been convenient for me last season.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2016, 10:10:39 AM »
I'm not sure if I like this rule but I've not played a season yet so it's hard to judge. What I do think is important is that if this rule is to be introduced then it has to be season 8. I agree with a lot of the others on the problems of changing a key rule like this after most teams have locked in. I don't think I would have changed my approach but I can understand why others might have.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2016, 10:36:39 AM »
Well I mean those who can't take advantage of the practice squad were already in cap trouble anything so literally nothing changes for them. When we had GMs going well over the cap, those same GMs would have gone over the cap anyway, so all they are doing is going "well I couldn't keep my finances flexible, so might as well take away from those who could." This isn't a situation where some teams will be hurt and some bendfit, just a situation where teams will end up in the same manner they already are, and some teams could actually make use of the practice squad. Not that those teams don't have options to begin with, it's just not going to be as unfair as some are making it out to be.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2016, 10:37:24 AM »
Though I would be against unlimited DtRs, one is probably right like the other clauses.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2016, 12:54:09 PM »
Though I would be against unlimited DtRs, one is probably right like the other clauses.

Now we are talking. Much like in fantasy baseball there should be a limit on DL slots.

As someone who didn't plan for a practice squad ... i say lets make the rule now.  The only thing in the status quo a practice guy can be used if you release someone or put them on IR and frankly thats very limiting and doesnt allow someone to take advantage of the practice squad itself.



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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2016, 01:10:24 PM »
Would we be able to sign a player to use this or woukd it have to be practice squad?

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2016, 01:26:02 PM »
The DTR is simply just to open a spot while the player is out for 2-6/whatever the determined time ends up be. It's the exact same idea as the Injured Reserve but just so the player is, designated to return at a later date.

What you do with that space is up to you but for that player to return, that roster space has to be open again through whatever means explained in the OP

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2016, 01:35:37 PM »
Well, the original post only mentions promoting practice squad players, not signing new ones, so I still say no for this year.


If the plan allows players to be signed for this purpose, and it's just not mentioned in the original post, then I'd consider changing my stance.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2016, 02:34:53 PM »
How you fill the roster spot that opens is up to you, the open roster spot does not include any cap relief, so teams without cap space would not be able to sign a new player, they would have to go to the practice squad to fill the roster spot. 


Enjoying the conversation and points of view though, so please continue the discussion if you have more to say, add, or questions to ask.
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GM Kirk [21|May 12:29 AM]:   When trade fever hits, math is the first casualty.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2016, 02:48:00 PM »
I think we need clarification on the rule relating to teams who have locked in with open roster spots as has been mentioned above. I left a couple of slots free so I could bring in injury cover during the season if I needed it. I think Powers said he did something similar.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2016, 02:51:48 PM »
Just like last season, roster spots are open and free to use if you leave them open.


In season 5 if you locked in without 40 players, you were confined to the number you locked in with. 
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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2016, 02:56:47 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2016, 06:25:17 PM »
Alright then here we go, A PROPOSAL

- Each team is allowed 3 DTR IR spots at a time (EX: Dale Hooker, Rickey Lackey, and Brad Bonila are all on the DTR, then Kevin Chandler gets injured for a 2-6 week injury. Kevin Chandler can not be place on the DTR until one (1) of Dale Hooker, Rickey Lackey, and Brad Bonilla are placed on the active roster.

- Players are eligible for injuries lasting up to 6 weeks, but if a player is put on the DTR IR, they must remain there for no fewer than 6 weeks. (EX: If Randy Oliver is injured for 4 weeks, he can be placed on the DTR IR, but must remain there for 6 weeks despite being healthy for the last week or two.) This is much how the NFL does it, but instead of 8 weeks being the minimum week wait, it's 6. A player can not be on the DTR IR longer than 6 weeks.

- A player can be moved from DTR IR to a standard IR, but not from IR to DTR.

- Player can not be activated from the DTR IR until a roster spot has been opened up.
-- This can be achieved through trade or cutting a player. A GM is allowed to negotiate a deal with the player and his agent for a "demotion" to the practice squad when cutting a player to make room a return to the active roster prior to releasing the player officially. This is if the team has salary cap room and done in conjunction with a DTR move.


GM Dazz

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2016, 06:55:56 PM »
I like the suggestion of the automatic 6 week ir but I definitely think 3 slots is too much. You should be able to cope with a few injuries otherwise you've done a bad job building your roster. Having 3 temporary ir slots just seems like it'd bail people out for making bad decisions. I'd suggest limiting it to 1 at a time.

Take the example used from my team there. I have cover for all of those players except Bonilia. Ignoring my open roster spots, if he got injured it would leave an interesting dilemma. I could either change my system to 3-4 while he's out our I could ir him and bring in a replacement. If I could put him on temporary ir then there's no dilemma and I just bring in temporary cover. If Smoak then got injured I could put him in slot 2 and again there's no real problem. I hope that makes sense.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2016, 07:03:26 PM »
I like the suggestion of the automatic 6 week ir but I definitely think 3 slots is too much. You should be able to cope with a few injuries otherwise you've done a bad job building your roster. Having 3 temporary ir slots just seems like it'd bail people out for making bad decisions. I'd suggest limiting it to 1 at a time.

Take the example used from my team there. I have cover for all of those players except Bonilia. Ignoring my open roster spots, if he got injured it would leave an interesting dilemma. I could either change my system to 3-4 while he's out our I could ir him and bring in a replacement. If I could put him on temporary ir then there's no dilemma and I just bring in temporary cover. If Smoak then got injured I could put him in slot 2 and again there's no real problem. I hope that makes sense.

No, because when someone's hurt, they're out, meaning if Smoak got hurt, he's not your #2, he's not playing. If all those guys I mentioned got hurt, you would be playing with one less player. If Smoak got hurt, David Seaton is your only QB active. If Rickey Lackey got hurt, you are playing with 4 WRs, not 5.

You can get away with it for a week or two. Last year both of my FS went down for two weeks at the same time, I had to sign a Free agent FS just to be able to field an active FS. So long as you have the minimum active players, your "fine" but you're down a man.

GM Dazz

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2016, 07:09:32 PM »
Sorry, when I said the number 2 slot for Smoak I meant the second ir slot you were suggesting. I should have made that clear.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 07:10:12 PM by GM Dazz »

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2016, 07:22:27 PM »
Now it does. So 2 then, I just speak from a position that had guys miss 4 weeks with injuries that I know the DTR is something that would have certainly helped me, or someone in a similar position.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2016, 07:27:56 PM »
That's fair enough. I'm not against the DTR and I definitely think it would be useful. I just think it shouldn't be too useful as these dilemmas are part of what makes the game challenging.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2016, 07:37:36 PM »
I think it needsto be a set period of time like the NFL. 8 weeks for when you use  DTR no matter what. This should!d only be for long term injuries. If a guy is out for aweek suck it up or made other arrangements.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2016, 07:40:14 PM »
Alright then here we go, A PROPOSAL

- Each team is allowed 3 DTR IR spots at a time (EX: Dale Hooker, Rickey Lackey, and Brad Bonila are all on the DTR, then Kevin Chandler gets injured for a 2-6 week injury. Kevin Chandler can not be place on the DTR until one (1) of Dale Hooker, Rickey Lackey, and Brad Bonilla are placed on the active roster.

- Players are eligible for injuries lasting up to 6 weeks, but if a player is put on the DTR IR, they must remain there for no fewer than 6 weeks. (EX: If Randy Oliver is injured for 4 weeks, he can be placed on the DTR IR, but must remain there for 6 weeks despite being healthy for the last week or two.) This is much how the NFL does it, but instead of 8 weeks being the minimum week wait, it's 6. A player can not be on the DTR IR longer than 6 weeks.

- A player can be moved from DTR IR to a standard IR, but not from IR to DTR.

- Player can not be activated from the DTR IR until a roster spot has been opened up.
-- This can be achieved through trade or cutting a player. A GM is allowed to negotiate a deal with the player and his agent for a "demotion" to the practice squad when cutting a player to make room a return to the active roster prior to releasing the player officially. This is if the team has salary cap room and done in conjunction with a DTR move.


I think it needsto be a set period of time like the NFL. 8 weeks for when you use  DTR no matter what. This should!d only be for long term injuries. If a guy is out for aweek suck it up or made other arrangements.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 1: DESIGNATED TO RETURN (INJURY) RULE
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2016, 07:41:17 PM »
I propose it starts S8.