Author Topic: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR  (Read 2116 times)

GM Kirk

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RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« on: October 22, 2016, 10:12:14 PM »
Taken from a memo sent to leage GMs:

The idea would be to introduce an option to pay a PR company to produce the player PR for you. This would obviously come with penalties such as the max level of PR being neutral and making it expensive to do. That way the people who want to be more creative would still get that advantage from writing their own PR but others would be able to take a penalty to move things along. The other advantage would come at times like now where if people miss the deadline they could be autolocked and have PR taken from their budget as a penalty.

I think the PR number would have to be set high enough to prevent PR companies being the easy option but at a level which won't penalize GMs with too many other commitments too much. I also think that this should be an all or nothing option.

4 million PR seems about right.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2016, 10:41:45 PM »
I know this would prob be alot of work for T unless he just took the 4 million out and gave you basic endorsement rating which would be awesome but if he did take the challenge I think being able to pay for which PR company you want. Do you want one based on charities (Wounded Warriros, Breast Cancer), one based on self promotion and endorsements (Sneakers, Billboards) or one based on other ventures (Movies deals, commercial.)

GM Dazz

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2016, 03:59:03 AM »
I think it should just be generic. If you want to specify that stuff then you write your own. I agree with the all or nothing idea too. In my mind, this should not be an attractive option and it should not allow GM input. If you want that, write your own. Unless it is absolutely required by the league I don't even think there should be any detail about the PR, just a rating. In my opinion, the people who put in the effort themselves should be rewarded while those who take the easy option are penalised.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 06:54:11 PM »
I don't think it should be a penalty (for someone who CHOOSES this route; I'm not referencing anyone auto locked into this). It should be unattractive due to cost ($4-5MM PR sounds about right), and for the fact that the odds are very high to get neutrals.

I think it should be based on a 25 sided dice roll. 21 sides = neutral, 2 = good, 2 = bad.


GM Gravedigger

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2016, 07:36:19 PM »
If this were ever to happen, it needs to be at least 5 million. It's really not that hard to do PR..... It has to be a last resort option to opt out.

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GM TJ II

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2016, 08:30:31 PM »
It's part of your responsibility to do this, might as well outsource the roster building, gameplanning, interacting while you do that too. You have an entire season to come up with ideas for the following season as you tend to keep the players with PR. You have the whole offseason for whoever is new. Im putting a no down now.

But I'll play along. 4-5 is too little. DC had 11 players that had PR in their contracts. That's just over .33M per player, to get a yellow? I'll take that over doing work. It should be 1MM per player, wholesale. You can't go "I don't have an idea for this player but everyone else I got". If you hire the PR firm for one player, you do it for everyone.


GM Powers

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 08:32:22 PM »
I could get behind $1MM per player.


GM Gates

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2016, 09:20:19 PM »
The PR is a big chunk of the game. Once you get to the season, it's typically just rolling along, with a few tweaks here and there (more or less depending on the season). At least that's how I view it.

$1 million a player would make it less attractive that's for sure. Not that PR is hard, but for those who don't want to do it, it should be a steep cost to doing so.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2016, 10:14:56 PM »
I'm thinking we up it even more.

Talon works hard running this game for basically free besides those kind enough to donate to his cause.

If you really don't want to do PR. It's a straight lump fee of $25 to Talon regardless of how many people are on your roster.

In exchange... you get the 25 sided dye role idea that Powers proposed for each player that requires PR.



  

GM Kirk

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2016, 10:39:57 PM »
While it might seem tempting to take a hard line and tell people to suck it up and just do it, we are currently in a position where there are more teams than reliably active players. We've already seen some GMs drop out or suggest they will during this PR phase. We have opt outs for people who don't want to go in depth on strategies, so this is the same as that. It allows people with less time available to still play the game.

1m per player is a price I could get beind, on the all or nothing principle.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2016, 11:26:26 PM »
If we do go for 1m per player there should be a minimum fee as well. 4 or 5 base fee + 1m per extra player. If you have less than 4 or 5 players with PR, there really is no excuse for not doing it yourself.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2016, 11:52:29 PM »
I'm probably going to vote no on this, unless the price is really high. I said at least 5 before. I'm thinking a minimum of 10 now...

JUST DO PR.

We had a month.... And you could have started before that...

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 12:34:36 PM »
If GM's want to disadvantage their players by outsourcing marketing great ... I'm all for it. I will continue to work my ass off on PR to let me players know that the Las Vegas Scorpions cares about them.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2016, 01:32:25 PM »
I'm fine with putting an additional price on PR if someone wants to/needs to use it. I'm even okay if the PR has a chance to be good if outsourced. We have a tight PR budget, so if teams see fit to spend even more PR on marketing that's fine with me. Let's set a sliding scale. 1M per player for average don't piss anyone off PR, 2M per player for above average PR.

GM Kirk

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2016, 07:33:52 PM »
I'm probably going to vote no on this, unless the price is really high. I said at least 5 before. I'm thinking a minimum of 10 now...

JUST DO PR.

We had a month.... And you could have started before that...

People didn't get it done and not everyone will in the future, either. I'd like a rule that deals with how things are instead of how they should be.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2016, 08:30:35 PM »
well could have person set aside as pr guy and you outsource him , Talon give him the ok , he thinks up the pr and submits it to talon for your team. You live or die with what he thinks up

GM Jon

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2016, 08:58:10 PM »
People didn't get it done and not everyone will in the future, either. I'd like a rule that deals with how things are instead of how they should be.

Actually... every single person got it done.

Who didn't get it done?



  

GM Powers

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2016, 09:41:45 PM »
I think he means "got it done in time".


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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2016, 09:46:53 PM »
My vote here is "NO". Unless it comes with monetary gain for Talon.

If people don't have "time" to do PR, then they don't have time to play period.

I'd rather somebody quit and leave then stay and moan about not having time/creativity/desire/etc. to do PR. It's a really simple aspect to this game that doesn't take very much time to do.



  

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2016, 12:00:42 AM »
Actually... every single person got it done.

Who didn't get it done?

I think the only outstanding one is Rebel?

Say it happens with PR, are people even going to have PR available to outsource it? I think most of the teams don't have the PR to spare to pay someone to do their PR for them.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2016, 03:13:07 AM »
My vote here is "NO". Unless it comes with monetary gain for Talon.

If people don't have "time" to do PR, then they don't have time to play period.

I'd rather somebody quit and leave then stay and moan about not having time/creativity/desire/etc. to do PR. It's a really simple aspect to this game that doesn't take very much time to do.

This is why I think there should be a penalty for doing is and why it should be expensive in PR terms. It's also why I'm against any option that might result in good PR. If you don't want to put the effort in then you shouldn't get rewarded for it. At the same time, we have to be realistic, as Kirk says. How long has the off-season lasted now? We lost a reliable player and 2 offered to resign in that time. We're still waiting on Rebel to do PR now. I just think we need an option for the GMs or Talon to use to make sure this doesn't happen like this again. Or we could take Jon's approach and sack quarter of the GMs.

GM Jon

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2016, 08:08:49 AM »
People not doing PR doesn't slow anything down. Talon, for the most part, has been really busy himself.

You've already seen Talon just move along in training camps and if your PR isn't done, you get punished for it. I mean it's pretty cut and dry. Do it or be punished, lol.

I am personally against a "get out jail" free card for people who can't manage to do PR. Like Gates said, it's a big part of the game as a GM to do.

Someone mentioned we have coaches decision for things like depth chart and strategies. That is why hiring a coach is an important aspect of the game. Not everybody is knowledgeable in football formations, so I understand that. Plus it adds an importance to hiring your head coach and making sure it works with your personal.




  

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2016, 04:45:35 PM »
Personnel.

GM Kirk

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2016, 07:30:45 PM »
It's not a big part of the game and not something a real GM would have to deal with. Some people like doing it and can get it done quickly but others don't enjoy it and have a hard time doing it. I don't really get the resistance to this, other than "I like doing it so you all should, too." I have three jobs and a baby on the way. This rule would be a huge help to me next season.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2016, 08:55:45 PM »
If enough people are for it, by all means, it can be a thing. If it helps people then hey, why not. When I said big part, I more so meant that without it, you're just playing a video game that, if you're having a good season, you don't really need to do too much week to week and your off season runs pretty smoothly. The PR is just a nice little difference to the entire game.

The only part I keep thinking about, and haven't figured out how to articulate it, is that if someone writes the PR and it bombs, but someone doesn't and they get a neutral result, would kind of suck lol. Maybe that's because I write a lot of...questionable PR.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2016, 09:13:01 PM »
I guess, but that other person will be presumably paying out the ass to have neutral PR.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2016, 10:55:35 PM »
I guess, but that other person will be presumably paying out the ass to have neutral PR.

Fair. That's probably why I couldn't figure out how to say it, cause of the fact they'd be paying a lot to get it.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2016, 12:11:50 AM »
I'm not suggesting that we scrap the PR campaigns and I don't think many people will choose this option if we price it right. It's just an option to help people stay in the game who otherwise might think they need to drop out.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2016, 06:57:53 AM »
It's not a big part of the game and not something a real GM would have to deal with. Some people like doing it and can get it done quickly but others don't enjoy it and have a hard time doing it. I don't really get the resistance to this, other than "I like doing it so you all should, too." I have three jobs and a baby on the way. This rule would be a huge help to me next season.

You are acting like you had 24 hours to comply to do PR. It's not like Talon didn't offer plenty of time to get PR done. We all have busy real lives. And PR, IMO, is a huge part to this game. Next we are going to hire out a agency to do our pitches to free agents. And then we'll hire an agency to talk to players or deal with our issues. I mean we're talking about setting the price at a ridiculous price so nobody can afford it anyway... so really, what's the point of having it period?

My stance on this is a very HARD "NO".

If you don't have the time to play the game, which like I said, Talon is also busy and we have plenty of time to do the things we need to do, then I'd suggest looking into getting a co-GM to GM with you so you both can do the things you "like" to do. 



  

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2016, 12:22:13 PM »
You are acting like you had 24 hours to comply to do PR. It's not like Talon didn't offer plenty of time to get PR done. We all have busy real lives. And PR, IMO, is a huge part to this game. Next we are going to hire out a agency to do our pitches to free agents. And then we'll hire an agency to talk to players or deal with our issues. I mean we're talking about setting the price at a ridiculous price so nobody can afford it anyway... so really, what's the point of having it period?

My stance on this is a very HARD "NO".

If you don't have the time to play the game, which like I said, Talon is also busy and we have plenty of time to do the things we need to do, then I'd suggest looking into getting a co-GM to GM with you so you both can do the things you "like" to do.

It's a vote "NO" from me, too, for these reasons.
Quote
GM Kirk [12|Mar 04:19 PM]: Gooch, how much did you bribe the HIFLPA to help you steal all my players?
GM TJ [12|Mar 04:21 PM]: Lolololololololooooooooooollllllllllll
Disgraced GM Powers [12|Mar 04:24 PM]: The league is #TeamGooch
GM Gravedigger [12|Mar 04:25 PM]: It's because he's so nice....
GM Gravedigger [12|Mar 04:25 PM]: Unnaturally nice...
GM Adam Wrong [12|Mar 04:25 PM]: I love gooch
GM Gravedigger [12|Mar 04:26 PM]: Everyone loves Gooch, except Kirk...
GM Phoenix [12|Mar 04:28 PM]: Almost makes you think gooch is reincarnate red skull trying to live a double nice guy life on hifl
GM Gravedigger [12|Mar 04:31 PM]: Gooch's heel turn will rival Hogan....

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2016, 02:15:47 PM »
You are acting like you had 24 hours to comply to do PR. It's not like Talon didn't offer plenty of time to get PR done. We all have busy real lives. And PR, IMO, is a huge part to this game. Next we are going to hire out a agency to do our pitches to free agents. And then we'll hire an agency to talk to players or deal with our issues. I mean we're talking about setting the price at a ridiculous price so nobody can afford it anyway... so really, what's the point of having it period?

My stance on this is a very HARD "NO".

If you don't have the time to play the game, which like I said, Talon is also busy and we have plenty of time to do the things we need to do, then I'd suggest looking into getting a co-GM to GM with you so you both can do the things you "like" to do.

Is this a game or a job?

Nobody is suggesting outsourcing any of that other stuff so I don't see how it's relevant. Honestly, I don't see the pr campaigns as being a big part of the game. They're barely even a small part of it. I agree that we should all be able to do it in the time and ideally we would. I'd say the same for the depth charts, formations and strategies. Talon puts a lot of effort into this so we should all do those too. The option is there to not do it to encourage people to play. Perhaps you'd be happier if the option was to hire a PR man as an assistant.

The idea of making it expensive or unattractive is to encourage people to do it themselves but the option to opt out will hopefully keep the most people playing as possible. Perhaps a compromise would be to have the outsourced pr all be bad rather than neutral.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2016, 03:45:07 PM »
Is this a game or a job?

Nobody is calling this a job... like I said, if this "GAME" is becoming more like a "JOB" to you... you should do one of two things, quit or find a co-GM. I don't think it's fair to anyone, especially yourself, if this game is no longer fun for you. And by "you", I'm speaking in general of whoever feels this way. It's the same way with roleplaying for an e-fed, when it's no longer fun, stop doing it. It's pretty simple.

Nobody is suggesting outsourcing any of that other stuff so I don't see how it's relevant.

It's very relevant. Because why stop at outsourcing PR campaigns. Why not outsource free agent pitches? They are time consuming. Maybe somebody doesn't particularly like that aspect of this game.

Honestly, I don't see the pr campaigns as being a big part of the game. They're barely even a small part of it.

That is your opinion and you are of course welcomed to it. I, however, have mine.

I agree that we should all be able to do it in the time and ideally we would. I'd say the same for the depth charts, formations and strategies. Talon puts a lot of effort into this so we should all do those too. The option is there to not do it to encourage people to play. Perhaps you'd be happier if the option was to hire a PR man as an assistant.

I don't see how making this an option "encourages" people to play or do PR. By not doing PR currently, meaning getting locked in, those have already been punished by losing time during training camp. That is all the encouragement needed, IMO.

The idea of making it expensive or unattractive is to encourage people to do it themselves but the option to opt out will hopefully keep the most people playing as possible. Perhaps a compromise would be to have the outsourced pr all be bad rather than neutral.

Or they can just not do the PR, Lock in, and deal with those repercussions (like missing training camp).



  

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2016, 05:13:34 PM »
When you find yourself using the slippery slope strawman, you're argument is on shaky ground.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2016, 06:26:10 PM »
It looks like the minority opinion, but I'm on the no side as well. I don't have as strong an opinion as Jon, but I think PR should be done by GMs...

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GM Lucas

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2016, 10:11:31 PM »
I don't give a shit who does the PR, let's get this show on the road. I love doing my own PR. Simple answer, just reuse PR's from past campaigns, change the money and the name and boom. Done. How many times do we see bobble heads and programs and jerseys being worn. It's PR. Save your PR from year to year or just look at past PR's or other GM's PR's if you are really stuck. When I started this I looked at everyone's PR's for ideas and borrowed some ideas, changed some things and made it my own. Now I understand this better and I still do some of the basic shit but there are some players I really get into. Honestly, no aspect of this game should be outsourced. If you don't like an aspect of the game, don't do the PR and pay the price, do minimal PR and pay the price OR, or don't play. Now for the love of GOD someone push the damn start button.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2016, 10:49:04 PM »
Are you under the impression that this issue is holding up the game? Because it's not. Talon's hectic work/life schedule has put us on hold (as it should - take all the time you need T).


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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2016, 10:53:50 PM »
I was under the impression that's what it was. Ok, my bad then, real life shit comes first. I thought some guys not doing PR was holding this up.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2016, 09:22:01 PM »
I just think once you scrap one idea or change it so it doesn't have to be done we are going down the road of the league dying. What is being suggested I think is what is wrong with people these days. Everyone wants everything now, no one wants wants to put in a little work. In everything fun in life there is a small tedious task that we must endure. Want to get on a roller-coaster we need to wait on line, Want a drink at the bar we need to wait for the bar tender to see us, we want our favorite food at our favorite eatery, again line. Strip joint, we need to wait to be notice. There is always a small part that we all would rather skip but we can't and it's not that big of deal. Just saying, the minute we say PR does not have to be done we can pay for a campaign then we risk someone saying " I can't answer questions this week can I hire someone to write my answers to the press" Then someone will say " I don't have time to speak to players can someone do it" Next every team will have two GM's. That was a rant. I think if poepl want take the road of paying a gm PR money to do their PR if allowed, if not then let that GM ask a buddy or someone who is waiting to join to do it for them. I don't have the perfect answer but I know scrapping a part of the game for the sake of one or two is not it.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2016, 10:19:09 PM »
STAHP

The slippery slope arguments... and if you ever find yourself making them you need to take a step back and analyze what you're really arguing about.

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2016, 10:33:02 PM »
No.



  

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2016, 10:41:14 PM »
Is there any reason for this other than "I don't wanna"?

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2016, 03:25:14 AM »
Have you even been reading the arguments? That isn't the reason at all. Nobody is saying this is because they don't want to and nobody is suggesting we scrap it. The people arguing against don't even seem to understand what they're saying no to. The slippery slope argument isn't even valid because each rule change has to go through this process individually. It's never valid anyway. I think most of the people arguing for the rule wouldn't actually use it. It's why we're suggesting it be made so unattractive. It is a last resort to allow people and Talon to move things along quicker during off-season. Sometimes other things in life get on top of people. I explained my own situation to Talon. At that time, writing PR campaigns that ultimately mean very little was a time consuming exercise that was low on my list of priorities. In normal circumstances I have no problem doing it. How many people missed the deadline? With this option available to them or to Talon we could have moved on when Talon wanted to. I'm not against making it a tool for Talon and a penalty for people who miss the deadline that doesn't force everyone else to have to wait for them.

Could we please discuss the actual rule being suggested and evaluate its merits and flaws instead of arguing against points that aren't even relevant and insulting people who don't agree with you?

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2016, 09:29:59 AM »
The funny thing is I have discussed it, but somehow the only thing you took away from my entire response is the one sentence in which I used a slippery slope argument. I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say insults... but I don't believe I've used any insults.

You keep on saying that the game was held up because people didn't get their PR done in time and missed deadline. When in fact that is not factual. When Talon wants to move the game on, he does. It's that simple and I guess that is what you are not comprehending. If you can't make the PR deadline you ALREADY GET PUNISHED. Like I've said... it's pretty cut and dry.

And to add to the fact that you want to make it unattractive... more or less, what's getting discussed is making it pretty much impossible for 75% of the teams to even use the option. So I don't see the point in having something that can't really be used.

When you miss deadline, you miss out on training camp. The game moves on. If you still don't get PR done for your players, well, you piss off your entire franchise, fan base, players, etc... and the game will move on. You just have to deal with the repercussions just like in any other aspect of this game.

If I get auto locked because I was busy and wasn't around to lock in... I have to deal with the repercussions of that. Much like Pancho had to when he was busy last season.

If you are not able to complete a portion of this game (whatever it may be), it comes with repercussions. But the game still moves on when Talon wants it to. It's a pretty simple concept that IMO, doesn't need altered at this time.




  

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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2016, 09:48:29 AM »
So... until I'm back.  I'm going to ahead and say this got out of hand and shut it down for the time being.
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Re: RULE DISCUSSION 3: Outsourcing PR
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2016, 04:03:37 AM »
You keep on saying that the game was held up because people didn't get their PR done in time and missed deadline. When in fact that is not factual.

Talon [28|Oct 08:45 AM]:
Once the sheets are done, clearly the game can go back to its normal pace. My deadline was there because I had free time to get them KO'd once that lapse we fell into "when I can get to it" time for a little while. Cheers

Seems factual to me.