Author Topic: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE  (Read 1948 times)

Talon

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RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« on: January 20, 2017, 01:05:10 PM »
RULE CHANGE PROPOSAL ON TRADES AND SALARY


This rule change would do the following:

- Allow a team to trade a player while agreeing to pay a pre-determined portion of that players salary for the current season.

Example: Team A trades Player X to Team B.   Team A also agrees to play $3MM of Player X's $8MM salary for the Current Season.

In this scenario, Team A will send 3MM from their salary cap for the season to Team B. Team B will be paying the full 8MM salary, but with have a 3MM credit added to their misc expenses.   That way the following season Team B will be responsible for the full salary while Team A will be back to normal as well.


The rule ONLY allows a team to pay salary of a player for the CURRENT season.  There will be no version of this rule that allows multiple years of salary to be paid, or a lump sum to cover multiple seasons.
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GM Kirk [21|May 12:29 AM]:   When trade fever hits, math is the first casualty.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 02:29:19 PM »
Will we leave it up to the teams to decide the amount of salary to be paid or will it be determined based on the percentage of the season that has been completed at the time of the trade ? (rounded to the nearest thousand, ten thousand, or hundred thousand)

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 02:37:14 PM »
Will we leave it up to the teams to decide the amount of salary to be paid or will it be determined based on the percentage of the season that has been completed at the time of the trade ? (rounded to the nearest thousand, ten thousand, or hundred thousand)

I can't answer the beginning, but I feel confident that the later would be rounded to the $250k, as that is the number we often utlize as the lowest number.
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Talon

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2017, 02:45:31 PM »
It would be decided by the teams doing the trade, its not a mandatory usage, just for teams wanting to make a deal and not having the matching salaries for a straight swap.
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GM Kirk [21|May 12:29 AM]:   When trade fever hits, math is the first casualty.

GM Dazz

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 04:58:41 PM »
The whole point of the cap is so that everyone is playing on a level playing field. This rule could potentially mean teams with rosters worth millions more than others. Working within the cap is a major part of a GM's job. In my opinion, the cap should remain a hard cap.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 05:09:25 PM »
The cap doesn't move though.

It's another team using their cap money.

It's just like PR can be traded, no different.



  

GM Dazz

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 05:22:42 PM »
Of course it moves. Not on paper but you still end up with a roster worth more than most and get a player you couldn't actually fit under the cap. It's cap manipulation, in my view. I'm strongly against it but I seem to be in a minority.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2017, 05:27:04 PM »
Of course it moves. Not on paper but you still end up with a roster worth more than most and get a player you couldn't actually fit under the cap. It's cap manipulation, in my view. I'm strongly against it but I seem to be in a minority.

Are you okay with PR (which has a cap so everyone is on a level playing field) being able to be traded between teams?



  

GM Dazz

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2017, 05:44:56 PM »
PR is a completely different thing. You're comparing apples and oranges. PR is basically a cash amount each team starts with but that can grow through things like sponsorship. It's not a cap at all. If you can generate more then you can spend more. The salary cap is a hard limit on the salary total of each team. It should stay that way.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 06:06:27 PM »
PR is a completely different thing. You're comparing apples and oranges. PR is basically a cash amount each team starts with but that can grow through things like sponsorship. It's not a cap at all. If you can generate more then you can spend more. The salary cap is a hard limit on the salary total of each team. It should stay that way.

That's not how it started off.



  

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 06:09:01 PM »
But really, that's beside the point.

This type of payoff thing in trades happens in real sports, with salary caps.

Except in HIFL, we are capping it at the current season only.



  

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2017, 09:49:09 PM »
In principle I agree with Dazz, but I've missed out on loads of trades because I couldn't get the caps to match. For purely selfish reasons, I support this change until it gets abused.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2017, 09:51:01 PM »
Limit to one per season to stop teams with bad records and big cap space funding championship teams?

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2017, 09:57:21 PM »
Chances are the big contract players are necessary for the championship team...and also we don't collude with each other.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2017, 10:09:45 PM »
Limit to one per season to stop teams with bad records and big cap space funding championship teams?

I think that's a justifiable way to build your team. If you can get a 1st round pick for 1 years worth of cap space say, that really helps build the team.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2017, 10:21:04 PM »
I think that's a justifiable way to build your team. If you can get a 1st round pick for 1 years worth of cap space say, that really helps build the team.

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GM Kirk [21|May 12:29 AM]:   When trade fever hits, math is the first casualty.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2017, 10:27:28 PM »
In principle I agree with Dazz, but I've missed out on loads of trades because I couldn't get the caps to match. For purely selfish reasons, I support this change until it gets abused.

How can this be abused?


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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2017, 11:03:40 PM »
Say I decide that my team is not going to win the title next season, I might decide to fund someone else's run to the title. I trade them my best players and pay the salaries to build a super team in Cleveland, for example. Cleveland with Spurgeon and Usher as well as my d-line/ WRs would be unstoppable.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2017, 11:17:23 PM »
Say I decide that my team is not going to win the title next season, I might decide to fund someone else's run to the title. I trade them my best players and pay the salaries to build a super team in Cleveland, for example. Cleveland with Spurgeon and Usher as well as my d-line/ WRs would be unstoppable.

I agree with you in principle, but why would you trade all of your assets to another team without raping them?  At the end of the day, if you have what they want and you are willing to foot part of the bill...surely you would get a king's ransom in return.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2017, 11:18:22 PM »
I find it very hard to believe that anyone would intentionally do that.  But for arguments sake, if you DID make that trade and:

- received a fair compensation package for it
- PLUS had money to field a team for the rest of the season
- AND manage to not get fired by your owner

....then I don't really see the problem.


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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2017, 07:47:14 AM »
Say I decide that my team is not going to win the title next season, I might decide to fund someone else's run to the title. I trade them my best players and pay the salaries to build a super team in Cleveland, for example. Cleveland with Spurgeon and Usher as well as my d-line/ WRs would be unstoppable.

Someone who has that type of talent wouldn't have the cap space to afford to make a move like that.



  

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2017, 10:15:29 AM »
I guess the point is that, in his scenario, Kirk would pay the salaries for Dazz, allowing him to load up for that one season. But in doing so a GM would most likely get fired, so I don't see it as anything more than a worst case scenario that wouldn't happen.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2017, 10:31:46 AM »
I guess the point is that, in his scenario, Kirk would pay the salaries for Dazz, allowing him to load up for that one season. But in doing so a GM would most likely get fired, so I don't see it as anything more than a worst case scenario that wouldn't happen.

But even in Kirk's scenario, it would be HIGHLY unlikely for that to occur due to no team having that type of talent and salary room to afford such a move. So the point is moot.



  

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2017, 12:35:16 PM »
This ain't fantasy football. No one is just giving up their players for a season. This isn't the EPL, there's not a loan system.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2017, 12:57:09 PM »
This ain't fantasy football. No one is just giving up their players for a season. This isn't the EPL, there's not a loan system.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2017, 01:22:45 PM »
Kirk's is an extreme example but still a possibility under the new rule. Yes, he might get fired but maybe he doesn't care about that. the damage would already have been done. But take the more plausible example of just a few players being traded for. Say Tombstone's season is dead mid season and Powers decides he wants to clear cap space and rebuild next year. I have a few promising young players and offer a trade of Chandler, Roman, McLaughlin and a package of high draft picks for Robles, Tibbetts and Hagan so I can go for the title. The deal seems reasonable but I've ended up trading $6.25m worth of player for $42.5m worth. I only have cap space of $2.25 so my team is $35m over cap. How is that fair?

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2017, 01:27:40 PM »
You mortgage your future on a major Gamble and raise expectations on your team to the point that not winning it all would get you fired.

Which scares most people enough to prevent a lot of that.
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GM Kirk [21|May 12:29 AM]:   When trade fever hits, math is the first casualty.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2017, 01:36:48 PM »
It's not that big a risk. None of my three players are starters and 2 of the Tombstone players are in the final year of their contracts anyway. I'd just need to reshuffle to fit Robles next season and I think a lot of people would happily take on that problem. I could probably get a good trade for him in the offseason anyway.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2017, 01:43:50 PM »
So in your example you are 35 million over. That would mean Tombstone would have to trade you 35 million as well in what the rules mean, right? They'd have to kick in the money to make the deal work and I don't think a team has that much extra cap space to make these extreme examples plausible.

Unless I misunderstand the rules being voted on. The idea is to trade a player with a high contract to a team and to kick in the cash to make the deal work. And if a team has that many star players they likely don't have the kind of cash left to make a super deal like what you and Kirk has said, unless it's more even going back with some decent contracts going to Tombstone.

Again I could be misunderstanding the rules put forward for vote.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2017, 01:54:14 PM »
Kirk's is an extreme example but still a possibility under the new rule. Yes, he might get fired but maybe he doesn't care about that. the damage would already have been done. But take the more plausible example of just a few players being traded for. Say Tombstone's season is dead mid season and Powers decides he wants to clear cap space and rebuild next year. I have a few promising young players and offer a trade of Chandler, Roman, McLaughlin and a package of high draft picks for Robles, Tibbetts and Hagan so I can go for the title. The deal seems reasonable but I've ended up trading $6.25m worth of player for $42.5m worth. I only have cap space of $2.25 so my team is $35m over cap. How is that fair?

If you could persuade Powers... or any GM to give up those type of players (the building blocks you'd use to re-build) and pay you $34MM in salary.

You deserve huge kudos.

It would directly result in Powers being fired. Because that isn't dumping to re-build... that's just stupidity.

And it would create a cap nightmare for you Dazz the following season. As you wouldn't be able to re-sign Tibbets or Hagan. And you'd still need to dump about $9MM in cap space. You'd get about $28MM with players on contract years. So it'd leave you with $19MM to fill 13 player positions at minimum. While you could do it... maybe even win a title (if you don't, that could bring unwanted repercussions) ... you'd have to fill up with cheap players to fill your roster up and with no draft picks to bring in cheap new talent.

But hey, like I said, if you could pull a move like that off at the expense of another GM's job, bravo. Just better hope you win the title and you don't succumb the high expectations the next season when you have a depleted team.

   




  

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2017, 01:59:04 PM »
It's not that big a risk. None of my three players are starters and 2 of the Tombstone players are in the final year of their contracts anyway. I'd just need to reshuffle to fit Robles next season and I think a lot of people would happily take on that problem. I could probably get a good trade for him in the offseason anyway.

If someone could pull off a move like this... which I don't think could EVER happen.

We can re-visit this rule, LMAO.




  

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2017, 02:02:46 PM »
I see what I did there...never mind lol

Still i think these outlandish trades are just that and wouldn't happen even with these new rules.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2017, 02:27:11 PM »
The point I'm making is that these trades aren't even possible under the current rules but are possible under the proposed rule. We've seen GMs do some very strange/stupid things in the past so the example isn't that far retched. I doubt Powers would do it but other GMs might. People asked Kirk how the rule could be abused and there are a couple of examples. I'm uncomfortable with the rule as a whole but it looks like it will be approved. If we do see these sorts of trades though then it will definitely need to be looked at again.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2017, 02:33:54 PM »
To Dazzs point - what if it was hard capped like the NBA. You can only send/receive say 10MM a year. It prevents Dazz and Kirks example while still giving some wiggle room for teams to operate. It's no more effort as the most MISC salary on Talons sheet is +/- 10MM

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2017, 02:35:56 PM »
I'd be happier with a cap on it.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2017, 02:38:39 PM »
no, because I still have to track cut salary and everything else.
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GM Kirk [21|May 12:29 AM]:   When trade fever hits, math is the first casualty.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2017, 02:42:32 PM »
I would be happier with a cap but with Talon saying no my vote remains no to the rule as a whole.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2017, 02:43:34 PM »
no, because I still have to track cut salary and everything else.

Add a second Misc row? 1 for Roster moves, the other for the rest?

I'm ambivalent because I agree with what Jon has said but want to at least offer out alternatives.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2017, 02:45:51 PM »
The vote is on the rule as it is.  That is it.
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GM Kirk [21|May 12:29 AM]:   When trade fever hits, math is the first casualty.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2017, 04:23:45 PM »
To Dazz's example....that wouldn't work, simply because I couldn't afford to bring on 3 new players, while keeping $34MM in salary on my books. Not to mention, as was pointed out, I'd be fired immediately.


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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2017, 06:14:27 PM »
Oh stop, this rule is designed for someone to fit an extra million or two on their roster...not for two GMs to collude and do something game breaking.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2017, 08:03:01 PM »
Oh stop, this rule is designed for someone to fit an extra million or two on their roster...not for two GMs to collude and do something game breaking.

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2017, 08:04:58 PM »
Oh stop, this rule is designed for someone to fit an extra million or two on their roster...not for two GMs to collude and do something game breaking.



  

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2017, 12:59:32 AM »
Someone asked me how the rule could be abused, so I gave an example. I said I support it until that happens.

GM Dazz

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2017, 06:15:26 AM »
I'm just against it on principle. The cap should remain a hard cap. It's a GM's job to make it work.

GM T-Bone

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Re: RULE CHANGE VOTE: SALARY MANIPULATION VIA TRADE
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2017, 11:52:35 AM »
That's a better argument than the fake specter of ridiculous abuse that was just tried in this thread. The first one is an argument I can take seriously. The second one only deserves ridicule.